JoCo2015 - JoCo Cruise 2015

This week, Merlin and John talk about:

This episode has been recorded live on the JoCo Cruise 2015. It is not officially available in the feed, but it is a mobile phone recording found on YouTube with really bad audio.

Intro with Jonathan Coulton (JoCo2015)

Jonathan Coulton and Paul from Paul & Storm enter the stage.

There was a moment on their trip to Africa (see USO tour) when Jonathan Coulton, David Rees and John Roderick were performing on stage in the Recreation Center for a bunch of scary military people who just want to punch nerds in the glasses. David started with some pencil sharpening, then Jonathan played some songs about monkeys and their butts, and John was going last and did some sensitive sad songs. They agreed to close with Toto’s Africa, obviously.

During John's performance, David and Jonathan stepped outside to have a beer while still listening to John in the background. Jonathan doesn’t normally like to step away, but he likes to support a fellow performer on stage. At one point it went quiet a little bit too long as John had finished his set and welcomed David and Jonathan on the stage, who were not there for an unknown amount of time. As they finally arrive, John said ”Oh, here they are!” Jonathan congratulated him with ”John, well done!”

Introduction with Merlin and John (JoCo2015)

Obviously Jonathan and Paul do not know how to start a show! In Rock ’n’ Roll you would start the show with the star at the back of the room running to the front. Today John is wearing flip flops and flapped onto the stage. They needed their hands on and they needed to see and feel him, because they are in the cruise state-of-mind, not in the Rock ’n’ Roll state of mind. No-one is in the Rock ’n’ Roll state of mind except John.

This show is called Roderick on the Line and John is the titular star of the show, but really the star of the show and the star of the Internet is Merlin Mann. They are trying to translate their usual podcasting experience into this live environment. When they are normally recording the show, they are constantly shuttered by virtual bowel waves, but now there are real bowel waves to shutter the show.

Kickstarter (JoCo2015)

Merlin wonders if they would be talking about their Kickstarter today and John adds that one of the problems with their podcast is that they have not really successfully monetized it yet. Exploding Kittens has kickstarted with at least $5 million and when John and Merlin recently put out a Roderick on the Line T-shirt, they sold 700 of them for $10.000 each. They don’t actually have a Kickstarter and they make zero money.

Draft version
The segments below are drafts that will be incorporated into the rest of the Wiki as time permits.

How their podcast got started (JoCo2015)

Normally they begin the show with Merlin calling John on the phone. They have had these kinds of conversations for years because John used to sleep at Merlin’s house and whether Merlin liked it or not he would bring a band and they would end up eating a very large amount of Dim Sum. They would talk about a lot of unsolvable problems and eventually they agreed that this is something that others should hear, too!

John helped a lot of people along the way. When they first started doing the program, it was still culturally agreed that middle-aged white guys had answers to all the world’s problems, but as they progressed through the show, the world slowly changed and now no-one wants to hear about what 46 year old dudes think, but it hasn’t stopped them and they still have all the answers. There are a lot of things they can help people with!

People not getting out of the way in the Windjammer café (JoCo2015)

Merlin wonders if anybody in the audience is familiar with the concept of Keep Moving and Get out of the way! There are some people in the world who know they need to keep moving and there are some people who know that they need to get out of the way, but Merlin needs everybody to know how important it is to keep moving and get out of the way! It is a revolutionary thought technology and it was never more apparent how desperately it is needed than in the Windjammer Café.

In the Windjammer Café there are some of the worst symptoms of the keep moving and get out of the way problem: There are people who think that as long as they keep moving, they don’t have to get out of the way, but in reality they have to keep moving and get out of the way! All of a sudden they get very attracted by White Rice, they get over here, then they see the gravy, they are approaching the sauce and stew station, and they get intoxicated by all of that.

The Windjammer will point out how important the two components are. You can fool yourself that you are out of the way in the Windjammer, because you get in there and think that you are not in anybody’s way, but then you realize that there is no out of the way. If you are in the Windjammer, you are in the way, which is why you need to keep moving and get out of the way. Nobody seems to be able to do either of those things because people are hungry and people are mad. It is a terrible situation! Merlin does not want to be ego-assertive or normative and he does not want to bring too much of his own personal moires to the Jammer.

John likes his food with a lot of sauce. There was not a cubic millimeter of white showing on his plate, but it was wall-to wall sauces, stews and steamed vegetables. This was one of the primary differences between him and his dad who was born in 1921 and did not like sauce because he believed that sauce was a way to camouflage poor cuts of meat, leftovers and bad mushrooms. He wanted his meat and his vegetables in discrete piles while John always wanted sauce.

John was in the stew portion of the Windjammer Café, getting all the stews, because there is nothing better you can do with two stews than to make a third stew. You are going to think that the Stroganoff and the Curry don’t belong together, but of course they do! Not only have there been people in the stew line who thought that the line started at the other end, coming toward John, but there were also people who thought that their method of keeping out of the way was the correct one, and there were the ”I just need to get one item” guys.

Merlin suggested the organizer to put the starches near where the plates are, because you get a plate, you put the starch on it and then you move into the proper saucing and stewing area. Merlin does not like what is happening to this country and he did not hear stories about his family face down in Europe to then get rice after the fucking stew. There is also always the little squirrelly guy who does the zip-in-zip-out because he wants rice with his hamburger.

Here is the problem: For 4 of the 5 years John has been on this cruise, he has been sitting with John Hodgman at a table in the Windjammer Café talking about all the things that need to change and all the ways that Jonathan Coulton needs to understand that they have a better idea how to run a cruise. What happened was that Hodgman finally destroyed himself and is now sitting in a cargo refrigerator box called Hodgman’s cruise, waving a flag, while John is up here with an experience of complete surrender, wearing shorts and flip flops in the theater.

John understands now that he doesn’t know how to run a cruise and he is only here to watch Jonathan run a cruise. He wished that he would be able to learn something, but he can’t. Here is how to run a cruise if you are Jonathan and you have this incredible staff of people and this amazing scenery: He has distilled the art of managing a giant project down to one physical gesture (they are making a pantomimic motion on stage pushing things that are in front of them to the side), but the cruise keeps happening and everything gets bigger and better. If John was running the cruise, it would be a similar gesture (John makes a motion blocking things in front of him, like "Stop! No!"). Merlin thinks that John would have a lot of rules people would have to follow.

The fictional John Roderick cruise (JoCo2015)

John could run the John Roderick cruise and take all the things he has learned and all the ways that he and Merlin help people with and literally put them on a boat. The cruise would probably happen on a train instead because the train is a linear thing and there would be no circulating, but you would just keep trying to get up to the front and your passage keeps being blocked. You hear about arriving at these ports, but nobody has ever actually met anyone who has actually been to a port.

The John Roderick cruise will just be a long ride on a single track and it will never stop. Things like that happen in Canada, too, and there is nothing to see there either. They will be taking away all the phones and everybody will taking the pledge, but guess what: Everybody is having their personal belongings taken away when they enter the cruise. You have heard of a thing called Winnipeg, but you have never seen it and you never will, it is somewhere in the distance. Sorry!

Merlin has learned three things about taking a vacation:

  1. Almost everything that is in the brochure is at least 75% bullshit.
  2. Takes some time to wander around and figure out what is actually good
  3. Focus heavily on doing 1-3 things that are actually really fun and that are good for that environment.

Now they are on a cruise and it doesn’t matter because you can’t leave. That advice might be useful, but no-one cares. On the John Roderick cruise they will take your stuff, there will be no ports, in the Super-bowl on this cruise the Seahawks will win every year, and it will always be Taco Tuesday. All the shirts will read ”Whatever you say, John!”

Realizing that he was not going to be capable of changing the way everybody in the world thought was a terrible adjustment for John. It is hard for everybody to be halfway through their reprogramming, but all of a sudden John had to stop. He has a 4-year old child and he has been completely unsuccessful of teaching her anything. If he can’t do it with his own 4-year old, and he has a specifically designed dog-crate with iPads playing John talking all the time, what luck does he have of changing the outside world?

Merlin says that it is nice to think John has hit Rock bottom, but he probably hasn’t. It is a consolation that there is always a lower place to fall. John is going to walk off stage and tell Jonathan something he should do differently, maybe he should make sure his talent gets on stage on time.

Sprinkles on demand (JoCo2015)

Merlin realizes he is broken and he will never be able to actually help people. He has lost his will to do almost anything and if he sees something as simple as putting the starches next to each other done wrong, it really appalls him. He doesn’t really care about fixing the world’s problems, but he can certainly get some gloves and some tongs and get the starches in one place. It would make everybody’s life easier!

From the time John went on the boat, he was counting down the seconds until they will open the sprinkles. On the first cruise they were on, they had on-demand frozen yoghurt all the time and John just timed his days around what he felt were appropriate lengths of time between visiting the sprinkles. If somebody would be super-creepy and was watching him to find out how many times he goes to the sprinkles, there would not be any pattern to pick up on, because he is going to take a different route every time and people would have to camp out by the sprinkles and be prepared to see through his disguises.

John has been waiting a decorous amount of time for the sprinkles machine to open and he did not even push any kids out of the way, but he just walked up to the machine. He is the kind of guy who likes to get advice on how to live, and there are two sides to the sprinkles machine: Everybody winds up on one side because they are dingelings and they just go to the bright light, but John goes to the other side where there is no line. He is ready to get the double-swirl, the chocolate and vanilla, which is the only kind of sprinkles, and as he began to make his first sprinkles cone of the cruise, it made a bunch of noise and John had created an unstable mathematical structure that immediately began to degrade and decay.

He managed to start the swirl, he was making a rhombus, but he was also fully committed to it and he was not going to stop now. He put another rhombus on top of the original rhombus and pretty soon this ice cream cone had the width of a shoe box, made out of 14 different interlocking pyramids. It weighed about a pound, it was structurally unstable and it looked like some kind of secret radio telescope. When he was done, he had to walk across the deck with dignity, but there was no escape-route and he had to walk straight across the main waterworks park. As he got on the elevator, he was the guy with the East German ice cream cone. It melted all the way to his elbow, but he went to his room and shamefully ate this thing. John was living the independence of the seas!

The burglary (JoCo2015)

John just had a fairly serious life event. Through the entire time of their podcast, part of John's persona has been that he keeps an impenetrable castle at home. He has tiger pits around his house, he has an umbrella stand by the front door that is full of swords and he keeps his house secure in every way. Despite all that, the day before the cruise his home was burgled while he was asleep upstairs. They stole all his stuff in the middle of the night!

The burglars came in via the one window that John thought he didn’t need to double-secure, because it is facing the street. His entire shtick, which is that his house is a fortress, has been dispelled! He often lays in bed and is thinking deep thoughts of all the ways he would dispatch a bank robber with the pens in the bank if he happened to be there. They wouldn’t die, but he would just keep them at a pressure point with a thrown ball point. Now he can’t even indulge in any of his hero fantasies anymore, because he was robbed under his own nose. He is finally at the age where he also contemplates death with every step he takes (Merlin lets himself fall off the sofa and the audience is laughing quite hard). He is also increasingly aware that none of his theories work. So what is next?

The worst part is that John heard them making noise downstairs! Because there had been a possum living in the walls of his house for the last month, he was thinking that the fucking possum must have brought a friend and maybe they were mating in the walls and he had to go on that cruise with possums fucking in his walls. John told himself that he had to go back to sleep and not think about it because he could not solve this problem during the next 12 hours, and he rolled over and went back to sleep.

John found a rare ghost of sanity in the midst of madness and he was not going to be a crazy person who would think that there were possums in the wall having sex. He could have gotten up, pounded on the wall and yelled ”Fucking possums!”, which he had done 6 nights in a row prior, but he just picked the wrong night to stop being crazy and was like ”Okay, I surrender, possums! You are God’s creatures, come and live in my house with me!”, but in fact what he had were people downstairs rifling through his boxes of Hubert Humphrey for president pins. They were choosing thieves who picked only the good stuff and left all the Nixon memorabilia behind. It is tough and John is really chewing on it. They didn’t take the swords, but they probably picked up each sword and laughed.

To find out if this was an outside job or a pseudo-inside job, John ran through his life in a fast-flash, as he does every night, and realized that he had reached that perfect moment in his life where he no longer has any crackhead friends. Even 5 years ago, there were 3 or 4 guys who probably could have done something like this, but now he doesn’t know anybody who knows where he lives and who is also capable of stealing his stuff.

Can there be a podcast listener who is also a burglar and who just happens to listen to podcasts where people are talking a little bit too much about their life? John didn’t even look if his vintage Playboys were still there! Being a meth addict and a locksmith at the same time would be the best combination, because you would be in this perfect circle of ”Now I practice locksmithery, now I smoke crank, now I practice locksmithery…” It is entirely possible that John has been robbed by a fan who wanted to teach him a lesson. It could have been a rival podcast like Jesse Thorn looking for a new straw, but Merlin will let Jesse know when he is a rival.

John does not care about all the stuff that got stolen except for one thing: They also took his passport which he had spent 10 years meticulously filling with stamps. John would go through customs, hand his passport to the guy and tell him ”Sir, actually I know exactly where I want that stamp!” This passport had only 2 months until it expired and John should have put it upstairs in the file of retired passports, which also contains a bunch of other people’s expired passports, but he was keeping it down on the dining room table because he likes to look at it while he is having lunch.

They took John's passport just because God was trying to teach him an inscrutable lesson about humanity that he cannot parse. When Merlin and John did a live performance in San Francisco recently, they talked about passports (it must be the Bonus Episode). Maybe the answer is to surrender? Not in a bad way, but dive off the back of the boat and just float, looking up at the stars until you will be eaten by a wheel shark which do not eat humans. Maybe things do not happen for a reason a lot of the time and there is no lesson to be learned here? John did what he could, bad things happen, and this isn’t a punishment because he did nothing wrong, he didn’t earn it and he can’t be sad.

John getting a new passport after the burglary (JoCo2015)

After the burglary, John had a moment when he thought he should not go on the cruise, because instead of spending his last day picking out matching bowties with pants, he was getting a new passport. It is a fantastic experience where you learn so much about America and about the way that people who do the same job every day do not feel like today is a special day. The people at the passport office did not think that John’s problem was a special problem, but for them it is the same old problem.

They have never worked with anybody who was happy to be working with them and your entire experience with that person is gauged by how little time you are in their life. She never hears about anything but other people’s emergencies and it is her fault all day long. The doors close at 1pm, it was 12:45pm and at that moment the guy John was dealing with decided that he needed to replace all the paper clips in his paper clip thing before they could go any further. John had to be in that moment with him, he did see that his paper clips needed dealing with, and he is not the one who is ineffectually yelling at the passport office guy because he knows that it is only going to slow it down.

The decision to go on the JoCo Cruise was now being made for him by a chain of bureaucrats, each one of them having to decide at a certain point that they want to do the next thing. John was at the DMV, at the passport office, and at the Federal Express place. Every step of the way, people at the very last minute were like ”Oh, the last paper clip is in the box and I will stamp your thing” and John could go to the next window. He flowed along like jelly fish in an ovulated bowl, just waiting for the rocks, abrading on the rocks each time, but he never disintegrated and just kept flowing.

Panic attacks on airplanes (JoCo2015)

As John got on the airplane, he had one of two lifetime airplane panic attacks (see also story in RL280) They were ready to take off, but John knew that this plane was going to crash and that he should not be on this plane! He wanted off this plane now and he had to tell himself that he was not going to be the person who stopped this plane, because it is just not who he is. Even as they were turning to the runway the panic attack didn’t stop and he really wanted off this plane now, but he was going to go to his fiery death rather than go down in history as the person who turned this plane around. Nothing happened on their flight, his intuition was wrong and he made it to the JoCo cruise (at that point he gets an appropriately half-hearted applause from the audience).

Merlin does not care if it did or did not happen for a reason. He is just glad that John is okay. This is not a funny podcast, but a philosophy podcast that is in the Philosophy department of the iTunes. John does get emails from people who do consider themselves university grade philosophers and who believe that the podcast is in the wrong category.

For Merlin, traveling is a very anxiety-inducing thing, but it seems to him that John got really good at it. This was only the second panic attack John ever had on a plane. The first time was in the back of a Lufthansa Megajet on his way to Germany. The plane had 6 seats, a small isle, 40 seats, a small isle, 6 seats, and then 3 more adjunct seats. John was sitting in the very back of the plane because he used to think that the back of the plane was the best place to be and the survival rates were better.

The girl next to him had decided that this 11 hour flight was going to be the flight where she kicked drugs. She was sweating, she was pale, and she was really tripping out! John never had a panic attack before, but suddenly he felt that he could not be on this plane anymore. There was nothing he could do and he paced around hyperventilating for a while, imagining all kinds of scenarios. John was a 35 year old man who does not have panic attacks on planes, which now became clear that that was false.

John went back to the galley and wanted to talk to the stewardesses like they used to do in the 1970s, but modern flight attendants are unreceptive to that and She was just telling him to rejoin his seat and John shuttered his way through that flight. He assumed it was a one-time-only situational thing, but now that it happened a second time, who knows?

John's uncle's plane caught on fire (JoCo2015)

In 1947, John’s uncle was on a DC-3 taking off from Seattle. Onboard were Yale football players flying out to Newhaven and the plane suffered a malfunction on the ground and caught on fire. John’s uncle was sitting in the back, popped open the door, and jumped out while everyone else died. Since his uncle started telling this story, John always sits in the back next to the side door.

Ruminating about a one-way mission to Mars (JoCo2015)

John is a professional traveler and with every successive year they make traveling more and more onerous, probably to prepare us for the transport barges that will take us to the moon colonies. We get more and more used to the fact that there is no more food on the plane, that you can buy a deli box for $14.95 and that you are going to get silverware that breaks. There is not going to be any in-flight magazine or movie, but you are just going to sit very still, trying not to breathe too much.

It is all prep so when they one day admit that there are UFOs who have been controlling the government for a long time, you don’t panic. Boarding begins here. Now boarding our star program members. Now boarding the members of the military. "Thank you for your service!" John is just hoping that they are going to recognize him as an officer. There is probably going to be a need for self-organization and they are going to need somebody who is willing to make tough decisions on the colony, someone who has a natural command personality. Increasingly, John is realizing that he is just going to be mopping sluice boxes like everybody else.

Merlin and John continue to talk about a possible future manned mission to Mars and what resources they would have to mine. There is no way Merlin would go on such a mission! When John was on his USO tour in Africa (see Shows and Events), David Rees asked every service person they met if they would go on a manned mission to mars and uniformly the answer was ”Absolutely!” It would be a one-way trip and you would die on Mars. You get to be a settler and you get the glory to be one of the people who set up Mars or be the Bring'em Young of Mars.

They ask the audience about who would be willing to go to a one-way mission to Mars and although it was the minority, quite a large group raised their hands. Actually this cruise is a one-way mission to Mars where they will spend 8 days turning salt water into fuel and on the last day they will take off. John would settle Mars with those people. There are a lot of breeding pairs amongst their audience, which puts John in an awkward position where he would have to break-up relationships, just like at the High School dance when you will give somebody a tap and say ”It is time for Daddy to Waltz!” like Frank Sinatra did with Nancy Reagan.

Audience Questions (JoCo2015)

You Look Nice Today

Will the podcast ”You Look Nice Today” with Merlin, Scott Simpson and Adam Lisagor ever be reunited? Adam is really rich now and because he has done all these commercials. Scott and Merlin are doing a comedy thing in San Francisco once a month, so it doesn't seem very likely, but Merlin is recording her vote.

Mentally putting people in boxes

A couple of weeks ago they had talked about mentally putting people in boxes. There is a list of things we go through when we think about other people and there is this little Pachinko game we play when trying to figure out who somebody is. You need to have one primary value on an axis and maybe one other thing, like ”Oh, that is the cute girl who plays games”, ”Oh, that is the black guy who is great at sports”, or ”Oh, that is the ancient guy who is really good at volleyball”

You are allowed to have one primary axis which is who you are according to how you look to everybody. 80% of your personality has to fit into this one-bit description and if you got too much going on, like ”Oh, that is the person who used to be in a marching band, but who really got into knitting and who is now thinking about joining the army” you don’t fit into the one-bit-plus-an-axis box and Merlin finds it really difficult and frustrating.

Merlin does this with other people and other people do it with him, but it drives him bananas and he tries really hard to get around it. Merlin hopes you will visit him because he is really trying to make friends with this thing, but he is too outgoing and it is freaking people out. Just say "Hi!" and don't hit him! One way to deal with this situation is that his first question is what people are excited about right now and not how much money they make. That is how you get out of the box a little bit.

One of the things John loves about the JoCo Cruise is that it is possible to imagine that each of the passengers gets thought of as a sea-monkey in their individual lives back at home. Here is the IT guy, and here is the science girl with the weird hair, but when they all get together on the cruise they realize that this is where their multifacetedness is appreciated. The capacity to see all different permutations of these ideas is baked into this culture.

Merlin remembers a guy from High School who was ”The Dark Goth Guy”, but then he went to college and there were dozens of dark goth guys who were all better at the thing than he was. Here on the cruise you see a little more gradation to that which not only helps you figure out other people, but it also helps you figure out yourself.

John was the nerd in his High School because he read the Wall Street Journal. When he talked about himself as a nerd later on, though, other kids who went to his High School told him that he wasn’t a nerd. They were all carrying around a big stack of boxes in their own minds that was the ice skating ring.

Burglary

Did John consider (57:35?) pitching the burglary to the store of Liam Neeson (maybe a reference to RL104?) for taking form between the (inaudible)? ”My name is John Roderick! I have a very special combination of skills! I will find you! I will get my shit back! I will kill you!” It is a great idea, but John doesn’t know if Liam could be energized to get John’s Sonos back. ”Do you know how long it took me to configure that? I entered the WiFi password 3 times!”

Female hat etiquette

A listener would like to place the second vote for You Look Nice Today. Merlin loved doing that show and he misses it now that it is gone. She apparently is wearing a You Look Nice Today T-Shirt.

A few episodes ago (probably RL130), Merlin and John had a lot to say about men's hat etiquette. Their strong opinions were really helpful for her, but now she is wondering about about female hat etiquette, which is a completely different animal! John has learned from having a daughter that people mess with her hair all the time, which she complains about. No-one ever messes with John’s hair, so he never had a reason to complain about it. In the logic of John being the center of the universe, he doesn’t know what people complaining about somebody messing with their hair is about.

Last night, John was up at the party and somebody asked if he wanted to abide a tiara, which he absolutely would. After he put it on, he immediately commenced spending the rest of the party trying to keep the fucking tiara in his hair and every person he talked to spent the first 15 minutes of their conversation fucking with the tiara. Pins were put in, his hair was back-combed and the tiara was stuck on there. John realized that the torture of keeping a hat on involves a lot of super-structure. It is like taking apart an Eiffel Tower and sticking it into a hat. Bras are the same way, and not just sports-bras (1:00:50?).

The etiquette surrounding lady's hats is much more complicated than men's hats! Back in the day, ladies would get their hair done, they would wear a hat, put a pin in, and don’t touch that stuff all day, particularly if the hat had bananas in it. In this situation the etiquette rules are different and John doesn’t live in a world where his hat is nailed to his hat. For example, it is generally accepted for a woman to have hats on inside.

Voices in your head

If you could have a voice in your head in addition to the ones that are already there, a voice that you could turn off at will, and it could be any person, real or fictional, who gave you advice and you could talk to, who would it be? For Merlin, it would be John, because he knew he would be able to turn it off, or otherwise Sean Connery. John feels like the voice of Bismarck is so loud in his head, no other historical figure would be able to shout him down. He is so mad about the Prussian advance that there is no room in there for anything else. Every once in a while John’s dad goes ”You are fucking off!” (1:04:37?)

Keep moving and get out of the way

What does John have to say about those who drive too slowly in the left-hand lane? We are very close to robot cars now and this problem is about to be solved once and for all and when the robot cars arrive. The only people self-piloting their cars will be people driving Camaros in the dessert. In the meantime, this problem is an adjunct of ”Keep moving and get out of the way”, because you need to keep moving and get out of the way relative to other people who are also moving and getting out of the way. It is inertial relativity!

You see this in the Windjammer: Two people are moving and they both feel that they satisfy the moving criteria. They also satisfy the getting out of the way criteria, but they are moving in enough synchronization that they are not moving or getting out of the way, but they have become a Sleestack. If you have 4 or 5 Sleestacks, you are going to go over a waterfall. It is a peripheral vision problem and you always have to have everybody in your periphery who is way more in. Every time John walks out of his cabin on this ship, he immediately assumes he is in someone’s way, even if the hallway is clear in both directions.

Particularly in America there is this mistaken belief that driving etiquette is regional and that people in Michigan and people in Tennessee have different rules about how to drive on the roads, but that is in fact wrong, because we are the United States of America and this is not an instance where state rights apply. If you are in the left lane and there is someone behind you, then you are the problem. Don’t get out of the way into someone else’s way. You could really say ”Keep moving out of the way!”

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